Moving from tournaments to cash games.

[frob23]

This is something I notice all the time. A good tournament player will decide to try their hand at some NL ring games.

So they decide to sit down and, of course, they buy-in for 100xBB. They do this because most people are playing with full stacks and they hear that it's the best and most profitable way to play -- to have as many chips on the table as you can. They heard right, it is the most profitable way to play... if you have a lot of experience playing that deep.

In a tournament, you're rarely playing with effective stacks as deep as 100xBB. You're probably playing with stacks in the 25-40xBB range most of the time. Even if you're the big stack, most people are playing smaller and you're essentially limited to what they have in front of them.

This buying in deep is almost always a mistake for tournament players. I hate to say this because there are tons of times when I profit from this mistake. The problem comes from the fact that very few tournament players have experience playing the turn and the river with a lot of chips left behind. In a tournament, if you raise pre-flop and bet the flop hard... you probably have maybe 1 or less than 1 pot sized bet left in your stack on the turn. If your hand is still good, those chips are going in. Usually, the money you have left or your opponent has left will

In a cash game, if you bet the pre-flop and bet the flop hard (say 3xBB with 2 callers pre-flop and a pot sized bet on the flop and get 1 caller)... the pot has become 9xBB+18xBB or 27xBB... but you have about 88xBB left on the turn. That is almost 4 times the size of the pot. At this point, you still have enough money to make very expensive mistakes. Bet 27xBB now and get called and the pot will be 81xBB on the river and you'll still have 61xBB left. You don't want to be calling off 61xBB with a huge stack but you can't afford to be bluffed off 81xBB on the river either. And without the experience, this is where costly mistakes get made.

This is why most people coming from tournaments complain that they win a bunch of small pots but end up losing a huge one and having a losing session. You can't afford to make mistakes on the turn and river when you're that deep. And if you don't normally play that deep on the turn and river... you are going to be far outside your comfort zone. And I know some places even let you sit with deeper stacks (like 200-250xBB) and the mistakes can get even more costly.

I like to buy-in for 100xBB, personally, because I feel like I have an advantage on the expensive streets. But I don't recommend this for players just coming over to the cash game side. Sit with 40-50BB. This is going to put most of your action on the flop and the turn... and the river should play itself. As you watch the table and get a feel for the later streets, you can start sitting deeper and deeper. But start with 40xBB. That's close enough to where you're playing in most tournament situations where everyone has a lot of chips... and that should be your comfort zone. As your comfort zone grows, so can your buy-in.

I hope this is making sense. But I see more tournament players who play hands like AA in NL and end up on the turn and river facing bets that they can't possibly call with only an over-pair. And they either fold too much or make costly calls and end up losing huge pots.

[Chips]

Very well put, most tournament players struggle when making the move and you are correct, become ATM's for the seasoned player.

[frob23]

lol... some this is from experience and some of it was just from watching a friend of mine, a decent tournament player, try and play cash NL. He ended up getting WAY too much money in with top two pair and over-pair type hands. In a tournament or with fairly short-stacks... those are great hands. In a deep-stack game, no one is getting all their chips in unless they've got those types of hands beat.

If, you example, you raise 4xBB with AA and get called by and early limper... and the flop comes 5-7-J rainbow... and you get check-raised on the flop... your hand is likely no good anymore. This assumes a sane player... against some maniacs... well, you might be paying them off if they have J-5 or something. I'm not saying fold... that depends on the size of the raise and the stacks... but you need to seriously consider what he's raising you with. There's just not a lot a sane player would be check-raising there. I am seriously putting my money on 7-7... maybe J-J... and possibly 5-5... but 7-7 is the hand I expect most often there. Anyway... regardless of what they have. Your hand just isn't that strong if you have 90BB left and he's showing an eagerness to put it all in the middle. If you have 15-20BB left... easy shove. Even at 30-40BB... I doubt I could let this go. But at 90BB, it's just too much risk for too little reward.

I was watching a friend play in almost exactly this same spot (except he had KK). And he's like... "I know my hand is good here... I have to play." And I let him play it but reminded him how much it sucked to go broke with only one pair. I won't bother going into details but it was obviously an ugly sight. Ugly for the other guy... who had J-J... when the river came a K. : But who wants to be drawing to 2 outs for their entire stack?

I've since convinced my buddy to play for 40BB and he's doing a lot better. He's rarely losing big hands because he's thinking of the all-in a lot sooner in the hand and isn't suddenly shocked when it arrives on the river. I expect that he'll eventually play deeper than he is but he's adjusting right now.